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          © Interview conducted by  REVOLT - "Rolling Thunder Writer".  8 / 23 / 07

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 1.WHERE IN THE CITY DID YOU GROW UP AND WHAT IS YOUR FIRST RECOLLECTION ON WRITING IN THE PART OF THE CITY YOU GROW UP IN, AND WHAT WERE SOME OF THE FIRST NAMES YOU RECALL  SEEING ON THE STREETS & SUBWAYS?*****************************************************************************************

 I was born in Hell’s Kitchen and grew up on the Upper Westside. My family moved to West 82^nd street and Columbus Ave., I also lived on Manhattan Ave. and 109^th.By 1974 Graffiti was big on the Upper Westside. I recall the hood was bombed by early writers: SNAKE 1, STITCH 1, CRAZY CROSS 136, CAY 161, JUNIOR 161,  EL MACABRO, STAR-3, RAT, MOUSY 89, CAT 87, TRAC2,  STAG 161, EVA 62, BARBARA 62, MALTA, STEVE 161, SO-HI, WAR 1, NP 1, JESTER 1, ALI 105, COCA 82, RAM 1, JOE-136 and TAKI-149 just to name a few. On the trains,

(the undisputed early Kings of the A trains) were just tearing shit up. TRACY-168 was whompin' the D train. This was also the time of the beginnings of the throw-up with writers like IN, TEE, DY (aka. JESTER) -although back then they would do their fill-ins pretty solid. It was the beginning of the two or three letter names. The Upper Westside at the time was a very racially mixed hood, about 70% non-white. We had some major, early groups, which click right into the genealogy of  graffiti. We had the SOUL ARTISTS ( S.A. ), the BAD YARD BOYS ( BYB. ), the REBELS (TR.), the UNDERGROUND

  ( U.N.D. ), and the NATION OF GRAFFITI ARTISTS ( N.O.G.A. ). Back then we bombed everything (trucks, buses, streets). I can recall watching buses pull up to a stop and suddenly 10 writers would jump out of the shadows to motion-tag it… it was funny. You see graffiti was never just an art form, nor was it just an artistic alternative to the street gang. It was a sport, which involved your entire body and soul.

 We used to do things like steal the conductors’ hat, any MTA vests, jackets, gloves, etc. We would steal keys and then distribute copies to all our homeboys.   I can remember guys like WAR-1 ( RTW, SA, TR. ), and LIL’ALI ( ALI, SA's little brother, Michael )  would have 4-8 conductor hats each.

We’d hide behind one of the station girders and wait for the train to start pulling out. In those days, on some of the older trains, the conductors would operate from the in-between leaning out to see the doors are clear. We would basically slap the hats right off of their heads. A lot of the time the conductors would literally stop the train, open the doors and chase us out of the stations and sometimes for blocks. Thinking of it now, I would’ve taken it pretty personal if someone smacked my hat off of my head as well.

The hood was full of writers back then, I used to hang out with LIL’ALI and we used to pester ALI (originally ALI-105), STEVE-161, MALTA. I recall writers like TAKI-149, STAN-153, and BAMA (AMRL) used to hang.  I went to all the local public schools (PS9, IS44, Brandeis High School and later Westside HS. I went to these schools with the likes of SE-3 aka. HAZE, an old friend, JERRY-1, SABU, VOX-2, SHY-3, STEVE-161, MALTA, COCA-82, AD, AX, (WAR-1’s bro.), ROD-1, DEAN (BYB), KIN-161, SIE-1(R.I.P. my brother) and his  younger Brother KEP-1, ME -1(aka the original PAX-1),

 STAR-3, naming only a few again. LSD -OM ( LSD 3)  lived a few blocks from me. Writers like CLIFF-159, BE-3, IN, and MOSES-147 and his cousin PATCH would come hang out at NOGA, or at the SA wall at Riverside Park 100^th to 110^th streets. The NOGA. writers were all good people: SAL-161, SCORPIO, NOVA, etc. It was a very interesting time, it was the early 70’s and there was still a lot of revolutionary spirit. Vietnam was still going on but winding down, bombs were blowing up all over New York City planted by, the Weathermen, the FALN, or the BLA. You’ve got to remember that Watergate was just happening, and the entire country was sick of the Vietnam fiasco. Nobody believed anything the Government told us after that jive war-profiteering war. For a brief time it seemed, people were really trying to get it together regardless of race, religion or creed. It was definitely more relaxed and integrated than the 80’s were. Brothers all had ‘fro’s. Whites and Latinos all wore their hair long, dudes were wearing Dai-Shiki’s! Everybody puffed cheeba, it was an interesting time to live on the Upper Westside.

 I recall the SOUL ARTISTS having a lot of this brotherhood spirit. The charisma of the SA. leadership ALI  has been grossly overlooked. He had tried to create a coalition of graffiti writers on a socio-political level. ALI wanted a broad coalition of writers clubs, uniting, regardless of racial, religious, or economical background. I believe he almost wanted a group modeled after the Black Panthers, The Weathermen, or The Young Lords. Only difference would be that we were writers instead of

 underground fighters, though we shared the revolutionary anti-establishment feelings, this would’ve been a righteous endeavor had his dream gone into fruition. In 1973, it was very unfortunate that ALI almost burned to death when his paint cans  ignited, caused by a spark from the third rail in the One Tunnel. FUTURA, who was present, must have been horrified to see his best friend in flames. Had this horrific accident not occurred, I know that under the leadership of ALI the SOUL ARTISTS with writers like MALTA , COCA 82, SE 3 would’ve ended up as one of the more prolific graffiti clubs. Fate would have it that the S.A. wouldn’t cross over to the level achieved by several later clubs. In many ways The Rolling Thunder Writers were the sons of The Soul Artists.

 2. IN THE EARLY AND MID-SEVENTIES THE GANGS WERE VERY POPULAR IN ALL PARTS OF THE CITY. WHAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION OF THE GANGS AROUND YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND DID THEY EVER CAUSE ANY PROBLEMS FOR YOU WHILE YOU WERE GETTING UP?****************************************************************

Gangs were a very big thing in the early seventies all across New York City. On the Upper Westside we had many, in the Douglas Houses up on Columbus Ave. there were the Black Cobras, the Barons on West 81^st, the Flame Skulls on West 83^rd & 84^th.When I was 12 I was briefly a member of the Flame Skulls which was a Puerto Rican gang, I was one of only two white members. I recall many of the great gangs of this era; the Savage Skulls, the Black Spades, the Savage Nomads, . I remember one day when the Black Spades walked down my street on their way to a fight / meeting, they marched in double file and there were so many of them that they took up the entire block for at least half a minute stepping towards their objective. I was in awe of their numbers and their discipline. Bike gangs were also  big,

 Hells Kitchen had the Flying Coffins and The Manhattan MC’s. Over on West 92nd st / 93rd st. and Amsterdam there were The Sandmen. From 1970 to 1973 there was a motorcycle shop right on my block so I was just a young kid knew many members of various gangs. We all know how graffiti derived from the gangs and there has always been a lot of overlapping between gangs and graffiti clubs. To be straight up about it, graffiti clubs almost always were gangs as well. They fought other clubs for turf in yards, lay-ups , where ever… for disrespecting one another over whatever, etc, etc… even if most of us started writing clubs (or writing graffiti in general) as an alternative to the traditional street/biker gangs, we all ended up loyal members of one graffiti gang or another. In the end we all fought and bled for that club (at least the clubs which counted). It is unfortunate that there was as much violence as there was, but this is really just human nature. We were simply a microcosm of all the street gangs, and other sub-cultural groups. I suppose an example of a street gang having beef with a graffiti gang would be from 1980, The Ball Busters vs. The Vamp Squad. The Ball-Busters never were a graffiti gang, only some of their younger brothers were writers. Rarely though, did street gangs and graffiti gangs have any problems. A lot of writers  were street gang members as well.

 3. WHAT WERE THE FIRST NAMES YOU CHOSE TO GET UP WITH AND HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE NAMES “SAGE”, AND “BILROCK”?*********************************************

 In 1972 when I was about 10 years old I used to write BILLY-82 and BIG CLYDE only writing on street and not that much even. By 1974 graffiti had become so big, almost every kid was writing something, I started writing SAGE. I got the name from watching too many kung-fu movies on 42^nd st.

 and/or in Chinatown. A Sage is like a “wise” leader, I suppose that is what I  thought of myself then. I was given the name BILROCK in 1978 by HUGHIE-167 aka. HUEY-RTW/HEAD/BURST, he and his partner HUNT-167 just started to call me BILROCK for some unknown reason. The name stuck, and I dug it, the 161 (BILROCK-161), I added cause I used to have an aunt that lived on 161^st and B-way. plus I liked the number.

4. WHAT WERE THE BIGGEST NAMES ON YOUR LOCAL SUBWAY LINE AND WHICH WRITERS DID YOU LOOK UP TO THE MOST?****************************************

 In 1974 I remember seeing a lot of writers like PIPER-1, JACE 2, STAY-HIGH 149, MOSES-147, B-1, PEACE-108, TAKI-149, LSD-OM , DERBY, CLIFF 159, PHASE-2, IN and JESTER on the I.R.T’s. On the eighth ave. lines IZ, TRACY-168. It’s difficult to recall all of the writers then, but I definitely looked up to writers like JESTER, LSD OM, CLIFF-159 and TRACY-168, ROD-1, and I looked up to ALI, and MALTA the whole SA ( SOUL ARTIST ). I grew up with many members of the SA., COCA-82 my boy lived upstairs from me in my building.

 5. CAN YOU TELL US YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE WRITING ON THE TRAINS. WHERE AND WHO WERE YOU WITH. COULD YOU ALSO TELL US ABOUT THE FIRST WRITERS YOU WROTE WITH EARLY ON?*****************************************************

 Wow that’s hard to remember ,I’ll try to. Let’s see, in the early days (’74-76)I was only writing on the streets, buses, trucks, and only motion-tagging the trains. I used to ride the 1-trains South Ferry loop over and over and over, I used to write with writers like; WAR-1 , AD ( ROD-1’s cousin), DAVID-80 ( THC OM ), TREAD-1, STEVE-161, SIE-1, LITTLE ALI (ALI’s brother, SA.,UND. Prez.), VOX-2, SABU, and my boys; SO-HI, and SHY-3(UWS. And UES. Writer). I went to I.S.44 with my boy , SE-3 (aka. HAZE), SIE 1, JERRY-1 , DEAN (BYB) and the above. We would basically wreak havoc wherever we went. In 1974 I was busted motion - tagging on a 2 -train along with DAVID-80, AD and

 my boy BE 3.We hooked BE-3 (3YB.) we all got busted except for BE 3 who narrowly escaped. In those days they “sentenced” you to scrubbing subway station graffiti for one weekend. It was a trip cause it was just an opportunity for a bunch of writers to meet and network just like a convention or something. My boy SIE was there, and my other old homey SE-3 was supposed to be there!, AD’s cousin ROD-1 was there too. ROD-1 is a very overlooked writer, his writing times were short but he used to kill the Broadway #1 Train in1974! I remember ROD holding up his black book for all the cops (our escorts) to see, then suddenly one cop looks up at a passing 2-train and points out a ROD piece going by. This “sentence” actually is what made me realize that graffiti was getting even bigger and from that time on I took graffiti more seriously You could just  tell we were crazy writers who didn’t give a shit, ink and crap all over ourselves. We also kind of had a “uniform” in those days; carpenter pants (w/Pilot hip pocket instead of hammer), US. ARMY “IKE” jackets (with midi’s or uni’s in front pockets), Original PUMA CLYDE’s (or even Pro-Keds in ’74). Some of us also used to wear used NAM BDU jackets with some ink drawn piece on the back almost like gang colors. They mostly would have the writer’s favorite band on it, I used to have some funky pieced JIMI HENDRIX. This trend may have only been native to

 us Upper Westside (UWS) writers, or maybe not. MY first time to the Trains was at the 1 tunnel in early 1977 with I believe RASTA , and SIE-1. We got our keys from CRUNCH. CRUNCH was the “key man”, I swear he used to have keys to everything in the transit system. 100 keys, IRT keys, IND/BMT keys. Once I had my own IRT keys we would terrorize the insides like few writers had done before. all of us would spend most of 1977 on the insides. By late '77 early ’78 we (RTW.) would start piecing at the 1-tunnel, the 1-yard, and especially the #1 lay-ups. I recall some early 1-tunnel expeditions with; ZEPHYR, REVOLT, MIN, RASTA , MACKIE, SAURON, SAG-1, SIE-1, VANDAL, all RTW Charter members. I remember one later hilarious adventure in early 1979 with my friend the artist; Jean-Michel Basquiat who I had known through both Westside HS People, and CITY-AS folks . Jean-Michel had

 been asking mesince 77 to take him to a train yard, we all know he used to write SAMO all over lower NYC.. One night in 1979 Jean-Michel and I were tripping out of our brains on Peyote, he suddenly was like: ”Yo! we got to go, you got to take me to the trains”. Understandably I was very hesitant but then

 insides of the 1-train, and the insides of the RR as well. In the winter of ’77-’78, we came out from the insides and began doing pieces on the outsides. I was doing SAGE pieces in those days, MIN was writing NE. The first real burners by RTW were done by , ZEPHYR and MACKIE. MACKIE was the

 first RTW. Member to do a top-to-bottom Burner(2/3^rd’s of the car), he had a very good simple style. I remember doing probably, two-dozen (at least), NE throw-ups before MIN-1 ever came out of the insides. By ’79, RTW. Was up on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, A, AA, B, CC, D, RR, N, GG, M, LL, and beginning to hit the E, F, and 7’s. REVOLT and I were the initial RTW. task-force to go all-city. We did some major  killin’ in those days. Then by’78, REVOLT and I would meet QUIK, in the E/F-tunnels, he was already on his way to All-City status. By this time RTW. Became a large, strong crew, we were allied with CIA., TNA.,TNB., OTB., TMB., TSS., TB., and The G-Crew from the Pitkin Ave. yard in East New York. We generally got along with most clubs but we were rapidly gaining a reputation for taking care of ourselves pretty well.

 6. CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU FORMED THE GROUP R.T.W AND HOW DID YOU CAME UP WITH THE NAME ROLLING THUNDER WRITERS? WHO WERE THE FIRST MEMBERS IN THE GROUP AND WHO WERE ALL THE MEMBERS WHO CAME AFTER?

 RTW. Was actually a hybrid of three factors, the first being , The Hawthorne reform school, which several RTW members came from (myself included), the other two factors were The Soul Artists and The Rebels. RTW. in many ways was the son of these two writers clubs.We were the next step, the writers who took the SA ( SOULARTIST'S),  and TR ( THE REBELS ). Trip further. The story is a bit

 MACKIE ( aka. HYPE / HYPER ), SAURON, SAG-3, CRUNCH ( SA.), WAR-1 ( SA.,TR.,T6B. ) VANDAL, SIE-1 (SA), HUGHIE-167 ( aka. HUEY, HEAD, BURST was originally from Brooklyn. He was down with the S.S.B Crew and knew DANGER 59 from Bay ridge ), HUNT-167, SAMURAI,

EARTH, STRIKE ( aka STRIKER ), SOME -1, DARK STAR, PETRO. (R.I.P ), TREAD-1, CHI-193 (female writer ), MONK (female writer), KINO, KESS-1, KR-2, KID PANAMA ( RIP ), CUE-3 (GO CLUB), AX (WAR-1’s brother) RUST-1